Professor Stephen Erin Dinehart IV is a video game designer, game director, producer, educator, and entrepreneur based in the US.
He is best known for his work at the intersection of themed entertainment, interactive narrative design, and games. He is the founder and CEO of the creative studio Wonderfilled, Inc. With over 25 years of experience in interactive design and development, he has a proven track record of creating successful projects for Electronic Arts, Warner Brothers, NBC Universal and more.
He comes on the podcast to talk about how you can get into video game design, what it’s like creating games, and some of his favorite games he’s created.
You can also learn more about Stephen on LinkedIn.
Here’s a quick summary of key takeaways:
This episode is a conversation between host Ryan Atkinson and guest Stephen Dinehart, a seasoned game developer. They delve into various topics, ranging from the emotional aspects of game development to the journey of becoming a game developer.
- Stephen Dinehart talks about the emotional power of video games and their ability to stir deep emotions in players. He shares how developers, like filmmakers, design games with the intent to elicit specific feelings during gameplay, which they achieve through extensive prototyping and observation.
- Dinehart recounts his experiences in the development of “Company of Heroes: Opposing Fronts.” The conversation reveals the behind-the-scenes complexities and challenges that game developers face, particularly in striking a balance between creativity and the practicalities of shipping a market-ready product.
- The discussion segues into advice for aspiring game developers. Dinehart encourages beginners to start by making simple games, even with paper or board games. He emphasizes the importance of design thinking and the notion that technical tools can be learned later.
- Dinehart discusses the opportunities offered by different game development platforms, including Unreal Engine and proprietary tools from specific companies. He mentions how mastery of such tools can lead to employment, even though it’s not strictly game design.
- They also touch upon the ease of self-publishing in today’s digital landscape, with platforms like Google Play, Steam, and even Nintendo now accessible to independent developers. This signifies a shift from the past when self-publishing was virtually impossible.
Listen to the podcast here, or find if wherever you get your podcasts:
Here’s a full transcript of the conversation:
Ryan Atkinson: Welcome, Stephen. I’m so, so excited to talk about your background in video game and development.
Stephen Dinehart: Thanks for having me, Ryan.
Ryan Atkinson: I am super excited. I’ve been wanting to ask this question for a long time, since I’ve been looking at your background. But you’ve worked on projects for like Electronic Arts, Warner Brothers, nbc, Nintendo. You’ve published books about video games, you’ve worked on games across role playing games, horror games, strategy games, action games, any game under the sun.
So, broad question to kick us off, like what is a favorite game you’ve dev, develop, developed and a story you like to share from it?
Stephen Dinehart: Right. I think still my favorite game that I ever made is Company of Heroes. Mm. The team was second to none. And for me there was, it’s a World War ii, uh, strategy game. My family fought in World War ii. My grandfather was cool, was still around when I was working on it, so, I got to talk to him and [00:02:00] trying to, to recreate that and going through that process was really rewarding for me. And, players loved it. And they still play it to this day.
It was just re-released on mobile last spring. So you can play my campaigns for c o h now on mobile, which is Brittany. And gosh, what’s a neat antidote from that? I wish I could have. I mean, we had so much fun with that team. Nerf guns all over the place and just always a sense of going to work with your buddies to, to make something cool.
And uh, yeah, I guess that was the first time I walked a red carpet. And I was nominated for best writing in a game production, which was cool cause I was just sort of outta grad school and just sort of spent all this money to like become a games professional. And it really did cost a lot of money. And it wasn’t, it wasn’t like a turnkey thing, but I went to ma get my master’s degree and was studying and then within six months of that I moved up to Canada and took this job at Relic Entertainment.
So, And I created this thing called the Narrative Designer. And I actually, I wrote the job description and my parents’ basement and they approved it and then eventually offered it to me. They didn’t right away. So that was challenging. But several months later they were like, yeah, we can’t find anyone else.
Okay, you could take the job. Which was which was nice that they, that they let me take it. Cuz obviously if you’re gonna write a job description, you’re gonna make yourself like the perfect candidate. So for sure. I basically just described myself in the JD. And yeah, so I was brought into work. Gosh, I’m not giving you one good story.
So I was brought into work my first day and I was trained as a visual artist. I’m a game developer. I’ve become a writer and a screenwriter, sort of by training and from interesting, from work really. And I had never played the original company of heroes, which oddly now, now contains my work because of patching and stuff.
But yeah, so they sat me down on a computer and said, Hey, you’re gonna write the follow up to this hit strategy World War II strategy game. I thought, okay, guys, uhoh.[00:04:00] But we did it. And we produced a very well acclaimed follow up to the original. And yeah, so, I got nominated with what was, what were the other games there that year?
It was like Scarface and oh, cool. Gosh, what was the BioWare game? The big BioWare game, the sci-fi one. I can’t think of what it’s called right now. Yeah. But I was the only one that was up there as an individual, which was pretty cool. So I was nominated for my writing as best writing as game production.
It was nice. The studio like gave me the nod and it said my name and then Seth McFarlane was the presenter, so this is the cool to do it. I guess. He said my name and so I was like, yay. I didn’t get the award. Was like, Hey, but Seth McFarland said my name, I got to go and red carpet event at tux, it was pretty fun.
Fantastic.
Ryan Atkinson: That’s so sweet. I’m really curious when, just in mobile, like just in game development as a whole, um mm-hmm. Can you give us like, For this game or any game in particular? Like what’s a high level overview of the process from like start to finish for a video game?
Stephen Dinehart: Right. Yeah, I mean it really varies based on studio and the production.
So, that one was so long ago. I mean, I could sit here and tell a story about it. But really the way it usually works is something is developed by a team that’s sort of playable. You call it a prototype but frankly, a lot of times it’s sort of misdirected and it’s just, people kind of classic textile getting together in a broom closet and developing something that sort of works, and then they show it to a publisher and the publisher goes, oh yeah, yeah, that’s great.
Why don’t we spend some more money and get some more people to help you to make that a better game. And then you kind of ramp it up that way. So, the process that I teach though you tr is, is a little different. And this is what I try to do with my games these days, is to design with intent. So rather than just like messing around in a game engine until like you find something that’s sort of works, which I’ve done before myself try to be intentional with my design choices and so [00:06:00] that I’m trying to deliver on goals.
Mm-hmm. And it really helps to kind of frame what you’re creating up front and to experience it very quickly. Cuz a lot of times on productions you can’t really experience it. I mean, we have all, I think, had conversation with somebody who says they’re making a game and they just like, They just talk about it forever.
Yeah. And they like, I’m like, okay, can we play the game? Well, no, you can’t play it. Well, you’re not actually making a game. And I was guilty of that before myself with Giant Lands, uh, my R P G that I released, I guess about almost two years ago now. It took me a long time to get that off the ground.
And I mean, I was actually just mentioning something to one of the guys who I first pitched it to at Electronic Arts. This is actually interesting how I got my internship. That’s, what I was, it was grad school internship with electronic arts, working on Lord of the Rings and all this stuff.
But so I went in there and I pitched this document that I sort of in my head told, I mean, I thought it was a game. And at the time I understand why I was in that position. Yeah. But it would take me a, a number of years before I realized, well, actually what I showed him wasn’t a game at all. It was just an idea, like written in paper and I was attempting to communicate a game idea.
But it wasn’t really anything you could play. So, these days I try to get to a playable as quickly as possible. It’s sort of like the same thing, how many people, I guess not, it’s not as normal these days, but oh, I’m working on a novel. Yeah. Or I’m working on a screenplay.
Right. Oh, well, I’m in research mode. Well, you could, you could be there forever, ever. Yeah. And and I’m guilty of this too, like my book Narrative Designer that probably took me about 15 years to get out the door Wow. From when I first wanted to do it, and I just never shared it and dragged. But way too much.
Yep. And eventually got it out the door and, and that going through that process was helpful for me. Mm-hmm. In the sense that it helped me change my attitude and think, I don’t wanna [00:08:00] do this. I’ll never, I mean, I’m gonna write a book every 15 years. I’ll never, get a body of work, be the finisher, get it done, move on.
If it’s good enough, you go back and you can edit it in the future. I just edited my book, still edit, editing it. It’s, I don’t know, of a new version, but, that’s part of the problem with digital. You can only kind of always update it. So I read through it again and I’m like, what the hell is this sentence here?
Just, getting rid of pieces here and there. So, yeah, I mean, the real thing is to get to something playable. Interesting. And, until you have a game that you can play, it’s not a game. And what’s interesting about games, it’s sort of unlike different forms of media that sort of exist as objects.
While there are game objects and things, it really only exists in our head. Mm. So the game isn’t really even there until we start playing it. Everything else is sort of like framing to like get your mind in the right place to play the game. And so that’s, that’s what I really try to get people to do, whether it’s my students or in my own productions.
And Giant Lands. Actually, I did something a little different because I had my boyhood idols on contract. Yeah. And I wanted to learn their process because as a kid I tried to emulate them. And so I kind of went back to the old way of doing things and I’m glad that I saw how they made games.
Yeah. But it’s very different from how, how I make ’em now. So it’s much more of like an authorship model. Yeah. And James Ward said, okay, gimme my check. I’m gonna go write this now for the next six months. No, that’s not how this works. So when you’re, I wanna, I wanna have a playable next week, yeah.
Ryan Atkinson: So when you’re creating games it sounds like you start with like an end goal mind. Like, what do you want this to like look like when it’s all set and done?
Stephen Dinehart: Yeah. Design intent. And so we, we talk about like the, the experience statement. Like what, what’s the experience, what do you want people to say about what they’ve, they’ve just experienced about that game?
Ryan Atkinson: Okay. I really, really like that. And so, like when you are designing a game I’m [00:10:00] curious cuz like I played a lot of games. I played action games, like shooting games, sports games were always like my favorite. So can you give us like a breakdown of like what goes into creating a great game from like a percentage standpoint?
Is it like 25% the story, 25% graphics, 25%, like the feel of it or like what, like what’s a percentage that you would give?
Stephen Dinehart: Yeah. Hmm. That’s a, that’s an interesting question. So, I don’t think I’d be able to answer it in a way that you’d be satisfied. Okay. Because the truth is it’s, it’s not that kind of a recipe.
I had the conversation with someone the other day, when I first started working in theme parks, I was brought in as this team of game design experts to help these theme park guys figure out how to make games. Right. So Cool. And they sort of had this attitude like it was a lamp, right?
Oh, just hang, hang the game over there. Yeah. We just need, can you just put the game? Can you just install the game over there for us? That’s great. And that’s, that’s not really how it works. Mm-hmm. So it’s not like lighting. It’s not like you can just hang a lamp and you know the job is done. Right. Yeah. And, and I don’t wanna say that lighting is simple, but it’s much more kind of concrete, right?
Yeah. And with a game, I mean, what we really are is sort of like designing for emotions. I create emotions in people, right? This is a, conversation I’ve had with a bunch of people actually in recent weeks is, well, and it’s. Part of the problem that people start saying like, oh well this has to be fun.
Well what is fun? Yeah, right. We can get real deep on that, write books and get, get doctorates on it. But no one really has the answer cuz it’s a weird word. And what is really fun So sometimes things that are challenging are fun. I prefer to think of like flow states. Interesting. And yes, when I make games, I try to get emotions out of people.
Yeah. So what’s this emotional journey that someone is taking over the course of playing a game, right? And what are those rises and [00:12:00] falls? And when we pull back away from that, what’s, what story is it telling to the player about what they just did? Interesting. So for me it’s games are, the word I like to use is like, guess sound, kunst work.
I don’t speak German. Guess I don’t know how you would say it in German Properly. Yeah. Guess sound kotak. Yeah, I don’t really know. So as from Richard Vogner, this I talk about it all the time cuz it changed my life when I read about this 20 years ago, 25 years ago, whatever it was. And so this essay wrote called The Artwork of the Future.
And was talking about this future kind of opera. But really games are like, it, it brings all this kind of stuff together. Under one roof. And you have to kind of balance it all out. So it sort of depends on the game that you’re developing. Mm. What kind of emotions you want to get out of it what target audience you have for it.
Interesting. And that will sort of determine those sorts of decisions. Maybe it’s a style of game that you’re trying to create. So we’re sort of guilty of this a lot. And in games where we just , repeat, repeat. Well, let’s just make that again, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I, I’m guilty of it myself, so, but it’s it’s part, part of the nostalgia and just sort of what we do as a species, which is interesting.
I mean, we’ve been making games for thousands of years and if you look at say chess mm-hmm. It took about a thousand years before we got what we have now with the Queens game. Yeah. And that was sort of an iteration that happened cross-culturally through different societies over, hundreds of years, right?
Yeah. So everyone’s sort of part of that sort of legacy, or should I say part of that canon, what’s the word I’m looking for? But they, they brought chess to, to what it is. So for sure these days that’s truncated a lot and that process happens a lot more quickly. Let’s say the other day my Buddy’s game Genova, he made this game called Journey, uh, for the PlayStation, right?
And someone, I mean, I guess that’s pretty old now, relatively speaking, but it was in someone’s deck, [00:14:00] a game from 10 years ago and they said, I want my game to be like Journey this game and that other game, right? It’s sort of the way we end up developing games.
And it’s rare, I think Will Wright the creator of the Sims Sims was the guy that first kind of told me about this. He was given a talk I was at and he, he created a whole new kind of genre of gameplay with Sim City. Yeah. And, urban planning, you tell people you’re gonna make a game about earning planning and they’re like, well that definitely does not sound fun.
Yeah.
Uh, but he did it and he, and it was a lot of fun and it changed the world. And now we got the sims and all this other stuff that kind of Yep. These additional types of game types that come out of it. So that’s a rare thing. Mm-hmm. This new style of play, a new sort of game system. Right. And once that happens though we’re really good at like repeating that, yeah. And try trying to replicate it, I guess Flappy Bird might be a good example. Yeah. Yeah. It blew up, right? Yep. Yep. And suddenly everyone thought, man, I could clone this, and no one really could. It was, I mean, it had this special magic to it. Yeah. And so, and, and that game is a, an interesting example too for the fun stuff, yeah. I mean, it was, in some ways it was an awful game. Right. But that was part of the fun.
Ryan Atkinson: Interesting. So when you went designing on the, the World War II game, I’m blanking on it so bad. Like what, how did you do this Cuz World War II games like what was your target audience and like, how did you, what were like the first steps you took to designing it?
Stephen Dinehart: Well, again, that was, that was different. Okay. Because that was a sequel to an established franchise at a major studio. So I mean, the truth is a lot of times in AAA games, I’m kind of a doctor. I mean, I was sort of a doctor on with the theme park stuff too. Yeah. , People are in development for ages.
This happened on, on the Fear Game that I worked on which was what I started on was Fear Two, and then it [00:16:00] became Fear Three. And my job was sort of to help it become Fear three because the team thought they were making Fear Two, and then this switch of Maru happened because of a business deal. And, Warner Brothers was like, Hey guys, by the way, that game, that sequel game that you’re making, that’s gonna be number three.
And you know what? Monolith already developed Fear two. Everyone on the team was like so they had spent, 18 months, 24 months, 36 months, whatever it was, oh, developing out this game. That was pretty cool. Um, but it wasn’t ready to ship. So that’s when I usually come in. And it was sort of the same thing with Super Nintendo World.
I didn’t arrive with a blank slate. Yeah. I arrived and actually so much of the stuff was already done. Interesting. They just didn’t know how to make it a game and they needed help. And I’m glad they and enlisted us to help And at some points people were like, Hey, should we just not have any game in Super Nintendo world?
I was, ah, really bad idea guys. It really upsets some people if you do that. And, and that’s really what it’s about. So, I tell people that, if you wanna do stuff for yourself maybe you just go like, be an artist. Mm. Maybe go be an author and then you can write those stories.
You can paint those pictures. Game design is really sort of a service. Interesting. You’re helping people and you don’t really do it for yourself. I mean, when you start off, you, you kind of are there. But it, I’m at a point now where like, I would have no problem making a Barbie game. Right. Interesting. I, or, or like a, a game about weddings Right.
Aimed at, pre-teens or something. Because for me, when I get happy is when my players are happy and I don’t really care who those people are, frankly, that’s as long as they’re the people that like I’ve made something for. And that’s, that’s sort of the fun of the theme park stuff because it’s for everybody.
Mm. And with a game like Company of Heroes, the audience was pretty hardcore. Yeah. And now it’s broadened a lot in recent years., with the Fear Game as well, like Fear players, pretty hardcore people. Yeah. [00:18:00] Yeah. And I wasn’t one of them, but I had to make stuff that made them feel more invested in the Fear franchise.
So I didn’t want to express myself. Right. How do you do that?
Ryan Atkinson: How do you like, make them feel more invested through a game?
Stephen Dinehart: Yeah. That’s, that’s hard, right? Well, that’s, that’s sort of my job as this narrative designer is interesting. It’s emotions, right? So you get them emotionally invested. It’s sort of trickery, right?
Yeah. A film I, I often try to get people to watch, particularly my students is this Orson Wells film called F is for Fake and it’s really about trickery. I. Don’t like to be deceptive, so I don’t wanna act like haha, we’re tricking people. Um, but no, we are helping people to get into a mindset where they can act out a fantasy or play.
Right. And for some people that’s hard. Yeah. Right. So, and those people those, they’re really kind of my goal cuz it’s easy for someone that. Already plays, already knows a franchise to get into something. Right? Yeah. But we we’re trying, we try, try to broaden it, right. And to get more people involved in it.
So with hardcore fans it’s very difficult to please them. I don’t, yep. It’s one reason I don’t like working with fans and people say, oh, I’m a big fan. I’m guilty of saying it sometimes too. But the truth is I’m not a fan of much. Mm. Like I used to be. But now I make stuff for fans.
Interesting. And people say you’re a gamer. Well, not really. I mean, I think I used to be. Games are my, my work, it’s my profession, right? Yeah. And for me what that means is delivering stuff for players. So when I go to Super Nintendo World I. Will probably be emotional. Yeah. But for different reasons.
And what will make it meaningful for me is seeing the guests play. Yeah. Right. And when they’re in that space and they start crying or they experience joy for, defeating Bowser or whatever it is, cause they got, they, they got the blue shell finally. That’s the reward for [00:20:00] me. That it’s working for them.
The illusion. Yeah. Cause it is an illusion is working for them and, the crying thing is interesting. I guess this came up the other day as well. I can’t take much responsibility for it. But people do cry when they go to Super Nintendo World now. At least according to YouTube. Yeah.
And I’ve seen it myself in parks I’ve made ones that I just visited or, or I guess was part of. So when I worked there at, uh, universal, I spent a lot of time studying the visiting world of Harry Potter. And so Cool. I was there part all the time. And people really do cross through London and into Diagon Alley and start crying.
Oh, that’s so cool. Because it’s so visceral. It’s so, it’s this thing that was complete fiction always on the screen, and suddenly they’re walking through it. Yeah. Right. So yeah, there’s people that are going through the, the green pipe and coming off the other side inside of Susan Rot Tin World, and they’re like, oh my God, I can’t believe this is real.
It’ss illusion and, but it’s, it’s real enough, right? Yep. Yep. So, so, so our job is to, as sort of media makers, is to suspend disbelief, right? We’re also cynical. We’re all so cynical these days. Society is so cynical. So whatever you can do to a, as for me at least as a designer, to kind of suspend that disbelief, I don’t, I want you to believe, because the more you believe, the more invested you’ll be in an experience and the more you’ll get out of it.
Interesting. And so you know , that can be challenging, but it’s it’s really rewarding and yeah. So in an ideal world a game starts with an idea, right? Yep. Some kind of premise like, I’ll, I’ll talk about the Game Cloud. There was another one I worked on in grad school with Genova.
And I remember for instance when he came up with the idea for that game he said he was just like laying back, looking up at the clouds and thought, Hey, wouldn’t it be fun to play with the clouds? Interesting. Oh, that’s a great premise. Right. So let’s figure out how to play to the clouds now.
It became a very different game when we first documented the game and made this document for it, it was a war game on [00:22:00] Jupiter about controlling weather systems on Jupiter. And the final game isn’t anything like that. It’s more like a Miyazaki movie. Yeah, yeah. But like, Magic Enc chanting music by, by Vince.
And it’s, people cried from it because that experience of flight, I guess, was so potent for them. And that it, it brought them to an emotional state they didn’t expect, I think. And so yeah, I mean really that’s, that’s what we’re doing. And this is, a filmmaker too. I’m an artist and I, I design for emotions cuz I want Yeah.
To have players have specific feelings when they’re doing activities. So the way we do that is sort of like science, right? Mm-hmm. We prototype it, we get people to use it, we observe, we, we, take the results from that, and then we tweak it again and we watch how they interact with it. We observe, we go, well, is that what we wanted at that moment?
Is that the feeling we wanted to create when this character died? Or when they crossed a certain boundary? That’s cool. Um, and if it’s not, Then maybe we need to go back to the table. Now. Sometimes it’s a discovery process. You go, wow, I, I had no idea that would be so meaningful. Interesting. But let’s, let’s go towards that.
Cause that’s really cool. We just found a really neat emotion that’s happening there, so let’s try to cater to it and maybe we can, we can get more out of it. So it’s a discovery process sometimes, but yeah, a lot of times it’s pretty messy. So, company of heroes, opposing fronts, I guess was the game we were talking about initially, so when I was brought onto that, the team had been in development.
Again, I think for 18 months or something like that. It was a little more directed. They knew that they were making a sequel. Yeah. But they sort of were in this mode where they were left to their own devices and just kind of things. Wheels were just kind of spinning. Yeah. Yeah. And then, new publisher shows up and.
You know, tries to get people in line says say, Hey guys, we need to ship this title. And that’s sort of how it works. Game developers kind of mess around, and with millions of dollars, but, it’s sort of how it gets done. But then you get this thing that kind of [00:24:00] works that may or may not be playable and someone usually steps in and says, Hey, hey guys.
It’s usually the publisher, the, yeah. The person with the purse strings. Hey guys, we need to ship this. This needs to be a product and a box out the door. Or this is a bad investment, so we’re gonna give you 6 million more bucks or 12 million or whatever. It’s interesting. And we want this done in six to 18 months.
Interesting. Cuz we’re gonna, we’re gonna ship it. Yep. So, yeah. And so that, that process is not good. It’s messy. But it still happens a lot.
Ryan Atkinson: Interesting. So we’ve talked a lot about like getting into gaming and like creating a game but we also need to talk about like how people can actually like start getting into a game.
And we’re kind of winding down on time , but like, how would you advise someone they’re listening to this? Like, oh my God, this sounds awesome. I wanna create video games. I wanna make people happy when they play my game. I wanna make people sad when they play my game.
Um, where would you advise someone to like start, if they want to get into video game development?
Stephen Dinehart: Make a game. Just make it you can make games with paper. You don’t, you can make it with sticks in mud. You don’t necessarily need to make it on the computer. And most of my game design students, the first thing I do is have them look at an old board game and then we kind of take it apart and remix it.
And you’d be surprised how quickly it becomes a totally different game. And that I think is a real freeing process for people. Cause a lot of it really happens in your head, it’s design thinking, so it’s not necessarily so technical. Mm-hmm. You can go learn those tools, but the sort of soft aspect of it, you can, you should be able to game design with anything.
Now if you want a very particular technical job. Yeah. And you are, you like being on the computer all day. Yeah. Like so many of us are these days. But yeah, you can get a specialization and some kind of engine. These days everyone wants unreal. Generally there are proprietary engines out there still, so some of ’em, like you can’t use until you work at that company like EA and, and then you kind of can use EAs tool.
I forget even what it’s called now. My buddy told me the other day, I forget. But [00:26:00] yeah, and they develop engines at different studios and they’re big proprietary, so they generally don’t get out. That’s happening less and less though with tools like Unreal. So in some ways it’s this real boon you could say, I’m gonna learn unreal and I’m confident that you’d be really good at it in 12 to 18 months.
Interesting. And you could probably go out and get work making stuff in Unreal cuz you know how to use the tool. Interesting. Now is that game design? Not really. Mm. It’s, it’s understanding how to use a piece of software, but there’s enough of a need out there for people to just know how to use the software.
Yeah. That it’s an easy way to, to gain employment. So, technical knowledge my sort of position I am a technologist. Yeah. But I tend to work like writing documents and stuff like that. That’s so cool. It’s not so tech heavy. I don’t get into engine much unless I’m doing it my myself.
Mm. And those are sort of rare. It’s not common. Um, my first games were just games that I made on my own, on my computer. Or that’s cool. Games that I made to play with my friends, like on tabletops, right? Yeah. So you don’t need so much fancy stuff. And we are all capable of this.
It’s, it’s, it’s inherent to us. That’s cool. So play games and make games, it’s sort of the same. I dunno. You wanna be a filmmaker, go make a movie. I mean, you can study it Sure. But like, just go make one and you’ll learn a lot. And the same is true for games. , there’s all these resources out there these days that are free.
And back in the day that wasn’t necessarily true to the point where, I mean, if you developed something that is great you could publish it yourself, like that was impossible when I was a kid. Right. So, cool. I, now, some of the pioneers in this space sort of did that with the shareware models.
Um, basically would. Give it away to people and then say, Hey, if, if you like it, give us some money [00:28:00] for it. And they managed to like, create this sort of internet before the internet, but it was all done with like snail mail stuff. Interesting. So it’d be really hard to do that growing up.
But now there’s all kinds of different stores. There’s all kinds of platforms, whether it’s a board game that you’re making or, or a tabletop RPG or a, a very. Rich third person sh or first person shooter, third person shooter, whatever. And unreal. Those, those. Tools are accessible and there’s, you can publish to Steam, right?
I mean, anyone can do it. Anyone can publish to Google Play. Apple is a little more challenging. Yeah. But anyone really can do it. You just have to pay a hundred bucks or whatever they’re charging these days to become an Apple developer. And then you can publish stuff to their store and it has to go through review or whatever.
But yeah, that was impossible in the past, even what I am I’m still an independent Nintendo developer now. I haven’t. Published anything with Nintendo. Yeah. And just not too long after I became a independent Nintendo developer, I started working on Super Nintendo world. That’s so, so it kind of derailed my development with this game I was gonna try to bring to Nintendo platforms.
And, I’m at a point right now where I’d love to do it, but it’s just money I don’t have. I’d have to get them to give me dev kits. I don’t really like the we to be honest. Yeah, don’t, don’t tell that. I was excited. I was excited to make a, a. 3D S game. That is not it. That’s not, it’s not, it’s not possible anymore.
They don’t, they don’t, they don’t publish for it anymore. Yeah. So, but anyone almost can become an independent Nintendo developer these days. You just have to kind of apply to it. And they have sort of a generous program to help you, and that was impossible. I approached Nintendo when I was younger.
To try to get games onto their platforms or to try to get their technology because I was just so, such a loyal fan and what really wanted to be part of Nintendo. And the answer was always absolutely not. There’s no way. Yeah, you don’t work here. You’ll never see what we’re making.
They’re very, very secretive. I mean, even when I [00:30:00] was working with Nintendo at Universal, they’re extremely secretive about Nintendo stuff with Universal and wouldn’t, we didn’t reveal product launch windows or anything to us. Oh, interesting. It might have been really helpful in some ways, but you know, that’s just the level of secrecy that they have.
But, that changed. I don’t know how many years ago it was now, seven years ago, something like that. They started the indie program and so you as an independent developer, you can get on Nintendo platforms. You don’t have to be a big studio anymore. Interesting.
Ryan Atkinson: Well, Stephen, that will wind us down.
Thank you so, so much for joining us. This is a, it, it’s so cool to peel back the Anaheim like videos, video games are created and like how you can get into it. So thank you so, so much for joining us.
Stephen Dinehart: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, and if you have any, uh, additional questions, feel free to find me on the internet and follow up.
Perfect.
Ryan Atkinson: And everyone, those links will be down below and definitely do. Thank you so, so much for joining us.